Holiday World Discussion

[Austin]

Just went to the Gravity Kraft site and saw these:

http://gravitykraft.com/wp-content/uploads/Timberliner-Postcard-front.jpg
http://gravitykraft.com/wp-content/uploads/Timberliner-Postcard-back.jpg

From the postcard it looks and sounds revolutionary.
66% less horizontal forces exerted on the track and 50% less vertical forces exerted on the track. Man Holiday Worlds maintenance dept is going to love this lol.

No shuffling or skidding = faster ride :)

Ergonomic restraints to seat larger people and more sets per train = higher capacity and slightly lower/faster lines

Ergonomic seating and generous padding coupled with seat suspensions = the most amazingly smooth ride on Voyage ever. People say it can really rough. doubt they'll say that with this beast :D

Maybe Cedar Fair has SOB closed until they see the timberliners in action and the new technology with Texas Giant in action? But if they arent looking to spend alot to practicaly rebuild SOB than I can see it with a timberliner.

[palmer]

^Those trains look really nice, and comfortable. It isn't like the GCI and Coney Island Cyclone couch seats, or normal wooden coaster trains. At least it was originally was made with side pads. El Toro had a problem when it opened in 2006. The train didn't have padding on the sides at all. So, when the "twister" ending came up, it would be painful. Only recently (I think last year) El Toro added the side padding, yet it isn't as big as the Timberliners.

[Truth Seeker]

I rode the Voyage Friday 7/2/10 as I expected no Timberliners. I did happen to see t on the alternate track to the left a Timberliner was loaded upon it, unfortuanetly the test dummies appeard to have not been used in a while and some of them were decapitated. I asked several employees about when they expected the new trains to be added all they told me was that they have no idea when they will appear on the Voyage.

[Shayne]

After what happened with Will Koch, the park said they were going to take some time before picking up with the timberliner testing again.

[Truth Seeker]

No offense to the family but it seems to me Will would wan't testing to continue.

[cory]

My friend got on the voyage and his lapbar came up in the middle of the ride. He had to hold on to the lapbar.

[DarienLake:D]

really now... im scared because the old trains are now at Darien Lake's Predator lol!

[Truth Seeker]

Wait now at DL's Predator? Are you sure?

[Shayne]

Holiday World had 3 PTC trains total for Voyager. When they purchased the timberliners, they sold 2 of the 3 PTC trains to Darien Lake. They kept 1 train in the event that the timberliners had any issues... (which was a good call). You have nothing to worry about DarienLake :D

[Austin]

The lap bar raising up is just your typical PTC quality ;)

[DarienLake:D]

Holiday World had 3 PTC trains total for Voyager. When they purchased the timberliners, they sold 2 of the 3 PTC trains to Darien Lake. They kept 1 train in the event that the timberliners had any issues... (which was a good call). You have nothing to worry about DarienLake :D

Well it wasn't like they could do anything with the 3rd train. lol! Predator only has a compacity of 2 trains. But yeah i know they are safe i trust Holiday World took care of them. Infact i rode it with its new trains june 6th though it had down poured the night before i couldn't tell if it helped with the roughness because after it rains alot wooden coasters tend to get more bumpy when very wet. But i plan on going this Saturday to try again and trust me the ride will be super dry... the past few days it has been 90+ in NY and it wont stop until Wednesday and Thursday to be T&L and the rest of the week to be 80's and sunny! But i did notice these new trains (HW old trains) are quite comfortable and more padded the Predator's old trains! I thank HW and wish them good luck with the timberliner trains!

[David]

I really want to try these out! I hope Six Flags invests in some of these veryyyyy soon!

[DarienLake:D]

hey maybe Texas Giant will have them... did they ever announce the trains of that ride?

[Austin]

Just found out some very unfortunate news. Due to recent bad weather three rides were broken. Legend, Rough Riders, and Liberty Launch. Legend needs a entirely new chain gear box and will be back up in a few days. Liberty Launch has its parts in and will be re-opened by the weekend. Rough Riders was supposed to open tomorrow. No detailson what broke on Liberty or the Riders.

[DarienLake:D]

Just found out some very unfortunate news. Due to recent bad weather three rides were broken. Legend, Rough Riders, and Liberty Launch. Legend needs a entirely new chain gear box and will be back up in a few days. Liberty Launch has its parts in and will be re-opened by the weekend. Rough Riders was supposed to open tomorrow. No detailson what broke on Liberty or the Riders.

I thought wildabeast was also down? Or did they get that back up and running?

[Truth Seeker]

It did get back up and running.

[David]

Oh my goodness! This was slated to be one of the best years for Holiday World. Looks like it may just be the worst. This is pretty horrible for a park this small. :/

[palmer]

Holiday World is just a diaster and having a major snowball effect. We all thought Wildebeest would make the park have a great season, but Koch died and Legend get hit hard, and Liberty Launch and Riders have damage. Must be bad for the management this year.

[nitrofan]

hey maybe Texas Giant will have them... did they ever announce the trains of that ride?

They announced that it would have Gerstatular, like the ones on The Boss.

I really want to try these out! I hope Six Flags invests in some of these veryyyyy soon!

Six Flags needs about 10 Millenium Flyer trains first!

[Austin]

The day I left they reported Legend was re-opened.

[Austin]

Testing has resumed! Pat will give us another update tomorrow!

[Truth Seeker]

Yes! I can't wait to try out those new Timberliners!

[Austin]

Heres the latest video:

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[Truth Seeker]

Oh wow! They even look smooth.

[Austin]

I dont know what happened with Row 2 and the 4th row from the back.

[Jp]

^ I notice that two. Can someone tell me why they are taking there time with trains?

[Austin]

Testing was stopped after Will's death.

[Jp]

Ok, Thanks I didn't know.

[Truth Seeker]

Wasn't Will working very hard to complete testing? I mean no offense to HW, but shouldn't they have continued work in Wills honor?

[Austin]

Well you have to remember that it was a stressful time for them and they had to take care of management issues and etc.

[Truth Seeker]

Good point, anyway I can't wait to ride the Voyage with the new Timberliners. They seem like so much fun!

[Austin]

Heres an update:

Holiday World & Splashin' Safari
This fellow with the teasing grin is Mike from The Gravity Group. He stopped by my office the other day for a chat. I shared your questions with him. In short, the testing will end when it's completed -- we don't have a date or a time; almost certainly not by Labor Day Weekend, though (sorry). At this point they test for a while (gath...ering data), do some tweaking on this or that, then test some more. Mike brought along what I thought would make for a fun coloring book. It's some collection of secret drawings, detailing every inch and every angle of the Timberliner trains. And yes, both trains are here. Meanwhile, Mike heads home for the weekend and the original trains will be on Voyage's track for lots of great rides this weekend.

[DarienLake:D]

Maybe they will officially be in operation by next year? At the most...

[Austin]

They will.

[Austin]

Holiday World has begun dropping hints: Holiday World & Splashin' Safari Promised to start leaking a few details about 2011 today. For next year in Holiday World, we will replace one ride with a vaguely similar ride.

[Truth Seeker]

Howler 2.0! Oh boy I'm excited.

[nitrofan]

Are these trains ready yet? I know HW has had kind of a rough season, but...

[Truth Seeker]

Nope their still testing...

[Austin]

They just began testing. Theyre taking longer 1. Wills death halted everything basically 2. these are new trains with new devices and etc and need new testing standards and more rigorous testing.

[Truth Seeker]

Garrett Westerfield What is the new ride if its not a coaster? Also, why did you guys put windshilds on the Pilgrams Plundge? You don't get wet now!!!):
2 hours ago · Comment · Like · Flag
Holiday World & Splashin' Safari They're splash guards, to reduce the amount of water that splooshes into the boats. Otherwise we'd have to slow down the ride significantly, as the water would have to pumped out in the station. That would reduce capacity significantly.
about an hour ago · Like ·
Garrett Westerfield Oh. What about the new ride?
about an hour ago · Like ·
Holiday World & Splashin' Safari We haven't announced anything yet.
about an hour ago · Like ·

Quote from Faebook.

Also if you already didn't know
Go clean your ears! :) No coaster for 2011; let's be clear about that.
Quote from Holiday World's Facebook

My question is, does this include kiddie coasters?

[Truth Seeker]

You can catch all the details, here on Holiday Worlds official youtube channel, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od5nhSzOQhs.

I am really satisfied HW is actually listening to us! It is very rare for a park to spend money on the little things such as this. I am very happy with HW's choice to both invest more for the little ones, and two invest more in the comfort and joy of their day to day patrons. Keep up the good work Holiday World, :D! Oh and don't forget to vote in the poll!

[Austin]

This is really exciting! I love what they have been doing lately. Next year will be a great year for them. I always hated how their old childrens rides looked because they were dated and now it seems they are looking into replacements for them. Anyone who followed them on Facebook can tell you how often they said they was opening a part of the park usually closed to provide A/C so with this gigantic addition of A/C it should help the park also.

The waterpark area is great to. I never quite understood the area that they are replacing so now that kids are getting a top-notch section I think that helps put Splashin Safari over the top.

Also don't forget that Timberliners will be rolling next year also ;)

[Truth Seeker]

I'm very excited about those timberliners. I absolutely love the layout on the Voyage, but I simply can not take how rough it is.

[David]

+1 for the folks at Holiday World. They are clearly in this for the park, not for the money.

I really hope I can make it out to Holiday World sometime soon.

[Austin]

In addition to the already known additions Holiday World is going to re-do the admissions area, and they are in the process of pouring a new foundation for Comet's Rockets in Christmasland.

[Truth Seeker]

In addition to the already known additions Holiday World is going to re-do the admissions area, and they are in the process of pouring a new foundation for Comet's Rockets in Christmasland.

I've heard of parks not following through with their plans but, adding more? The Kochs really are the best (with the exception of possibly Ed Hart).

[nitrofan]

Did these trains ever open in 2010? They better at the very least open with the park in 2011. Did anyone get a chance to ride them if they have opened to the public before?

[David]

Nope. I don't really understand why either.. It shouldn't have taken them this long. They should have been testing during 2009, and opening early 2010.

[Austin]

Well go design something radically new with no full time coaster to test on and you'll then see why they couldn't. These are 100% new trains and have never before been tried. You can't expect there to be no delay ever. Everything radically new has delays.

And to quote Coaster101's interview with Gravity Group:

What were some of the challenges in designing the Timberliners? Why were they delayed a year on the Voyage?

With any new product that did things so differently on so many fronts, there were unknowns that could only be identified through extensive testing. The majority of the delay was due to motion in the seat area, which it turns out is a combination of many different factors. Getting to ride it is the biggest hurdle on the project, and we will continue testing in early spring.

As with any new product it requires rigorous testing to make sure theyre safe, functioning, reliable products. And as they said in their interview an unforeseen issue arose and has been fixed and is on track to open in 2011 with Voyage.

I really don't see why everyone has been so harshly critical of something that no one could have seen happening.

[David]

They COULD have begun testing in 2009...

[Austin]

And they did. They deisgned a very very rough prototype and tested it on Raven. They took that data and went on to design the final build. The prototype however didnt have the seats. It only had a plastic form to place the dummies in. And the seats on it and the finished product are radically different.

[DejaVu2001]

Now this just got really interesting. At ACE No Coaster Con today, Tom Rebbie from PTC said Holiday World is having him build a new PTC train for Voyage this year. I'm guessing this means Voyage will be running 2 PTC trains again this year. Holiday World and Gravity Group were not at the event, so no news on what happened with the Timberliners.

[David]

Thank goodness I didn't renew my membership. I also heard Great America was a no show?
Anyways. Possibly their totally re-creating the way the trains work? hmm..

[Austin]

That doesn't mean they wont run this year.

[Truth Seeker]

Oh, please let them run. I have been looking forward to this since 2009!

[Austin]

The PTC is probably just like insurance just in case another issue comes up. Plus Raven needs its red train back so it can run 2 train op.

[Changsucks]

^From what I've heard and experienced, Raven never runs two trains anyway, even in 2009.

[Austin]

They always do. It's always 2 train op when I'm there and it makes a serious impact on lines. I don't even want to imagine how bad it was last year after giving up a train to voyage

[Truth Seeker]

Fortunately, I waited last minute to ride the Voyage this year when the wait had thinned down to twenty minutes, :).

[Austin]

Rudolph's Round-Up has been built 100% at the factory and will be shipped in about a month if the weather is good!

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1380.snc4/163212_487512454537_35385539537_6107556_1190024_n. jpg

[David]

Nice work on the part of Holiday World!

[Austin]

Its a Tremendous improvement over Blitzen's Airplanes (Rudolph's Round-Up will replace it in 2011)

This is what the planes look like:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2539/3965645995_ea6f46052d_z.jpg

[Truth Seeker]

Definite improvement! Keep up the good work Kochs, :).

[Austin]

Now if they could just get rid of the other rides in that area that look like that haha. Gives you a bad first impression seeing rides that look like they came from the state fair all around the entrance.

[Austin]

Holiday World is also adding 500 new lockers to Splashin Safari! I'm beginning to lose track of all the additions for 2011 haha

[Austin]

Its official, Holiday World has gone shade crazy haha.

http://www.holidayworld.com/node/3501

They are also adding a new shade structure to Wildebeest. The roof will be 3 triangles like a sailboat's sail. In addition to that the main queue to the ride is getting a wooden trellis that will be covered in ivy to spruce it up a bit and keep you in shade the entire time.

[Jp]

I think they should of done something to fit the theme better than a boat theme! IMO

[Austin]

I think it will look great and fit in perfect with the area.

[Truth Seeker]

I'm siding with JP. Since when do boats and wildebeests go together?

[Austin]

Its a waterpark. All he said was the roof was shaped like sails from sailboats. You won't even notice it.

[Truth Seeker]

I suppose it's more relevant than umbrellas. Still, I would of liked to seen more effort in planning.

[Austin]

I think it looks great. A lot of work went into but they didn't feel like they didn't have to announce it. I mean look at the other stuff they are doing that wasn't announced. Plu sit will be colored. Not white.

[David]

I see what the Koch's are preparing for, they want the park to be in tip top shape for when they eventually add their first large steel.

[Austin]

Don't get your hopes up. The only steel coaster they will have for some time is Holidog. I mean they had the chance multiple times to do one. Voyage could have easily been a steel coaster but it wasn't and they added a wooden. Also, you have to consider they're a family park. They really don't have the money to build a $15 million steel coaster.

[Austin]

Update: Holiday World is also adding multiple free wi-fi locations throughout the park for 2011. The park really has gone over the top haha. This is why I love the park!

[David]

Maybe they want the title of Best Park in the World?

[Austin]

I think they have gotten it already haha

[David]

I thought Cedar Point always gets it? lol

[Austin]

But what does Cedar Point care about its guests? The Koch's actually care about every single guests that enter their park. It's not a corporate park that only cares about their bottom line. They put quality into everything and they don't reside in their offices all day, theyre out their working everyday. Besides look at the office of Dan Koch. Everything is boxed still and looks like he is hardly in there lol.

[Truth Seeker]

But what does Cedar Point care about its guests? The Koch's actually care about every single guests that enter their park. It's not a corporate park that only cares about their bottom line. They put quality into everything and they don't reside in their offices all day, theyre out their working everyday. Besides look at the office of Dan Koch. Everything is boxed still and looks like he is hardly in there lol.

That's because he still resides in Florida as a lawyer. He takes trips to H.W. quite regularly but, he does not live in Indiana.

[Austin]

Same thing. None of their offices are used much.

[Austin]

I think Holiday World has officially gone mad with improvements.

Raven is getting some substantial track work near the top of the lift and drop. Legend is also getting some major track work on its main drop. Makes me wonder what else they haven't shown us lol.

[nitrofan]

I think Holiday World has officially gone mad with improvements.

Raven is getting some substantial track work near the top of the lift and drop. Legend is also getting some major track work on its main drop. Makes me wonder what else they haven't shown us lol.

A lot of parks get lots of improvements like this over the off-season. Most parks just don't announce them all.

[Austin]

Holiday World definitely deserves credit for keeping their fans up to date with their improvements.

Also, Holiday World will likely post record figures this year again.

[Truth Seeker]

Here's a fairly unknown fact, Kentucky Kingdom also had record attendance last year.

[Jp]

As promised, here is an update about the Timberliner trains for Voyage:

In 2011, The Voyage will use two seven-car PTC trains (The Raven will have two six-car PTC trains).

The Timberliner models tested here in 2010 will be upgraded after similar models are used at other parks this season. Because of the extreme speeds and forces on The Voyage, we feel it is better to wait until there has been a full season of Timberliner-use elsewhere (on less extreme coasters which were designed with Timberliners in mind). GravityKraft will then refurbish our trains so that we’ll have the most up-to-date models.

We intend to introduce Voyage’s Timberliner trains at the start of the 2012 season.

Happy St. Patrick's Day! Paula

[David]

Sortta sad to see one of Will's projects delayed so badly.

[Austin]

I can see why though. #1 (not sure what the rank was in the recent polls) wooden coaster so if something is wrong on the new trains they might hurt themselves in standings, popularity etc. Its all about delivering the best product.

[nitrofan]

I can see why though. #1 (not sure what the rank was in the recent polls) wooden coaster so if something is wrong on the new trains they might hurt themselves in standings, popularity etc. Its all about delivering the best product.

Voyage is now #6. I can understand a delay, but 2 years is kinda absurd. If it were any park other than Holiday World, there is no way they would get away with this like Holiday World is.

[David]

I think they used Will's death as an excuse. I don't see why that would affect anything..

Anyways, Other than the wheel axle's there's not much radically different about these trains, so I don't understand why it's this bad..

[Austin]

Everything is different. This train can use magnetic launching, and braking. Plus each bench has its own shocks. The axles are the most high tech in the industry. And they didnt use his death as an excuse. They found legitimate issues with it. Plus it didnt make sense to try and open them that late in the year when they needed all the testing required.

Waiting a year to see how the other park's trains operate and what adjustments GG makes to the trains for future use makes alot of sense.

[DarienLake:D]

Everything is different. This train can use magnetic launching, and braking.

WUT! They proven that?

[Austin]

Yes. Its on the brochure. Now many people look at that and think Top Thrill Dragster launch but no, your looking at a magnetic type lift that replaces chain and motor where the magnets simulate chain speed so it keeps it as close to a wooden coaster as possible while providing a cheap modern coaster. Theres no moving parts, no possibility of a chain break and its 100% fail proof. Thats why im 100% pro-magnetic breaking/launching etc over fin breaking.

Now on old classics, fins/skids should be kept but all new construction should make use of them.

[SFNE Expert]

No, they're just capable of it. There is a woodie launch shuttle coming out soon though.

[Austin]

I would love to see that. Seriously lol. Would it have a loop or just a spike?

[nitrofan]

Unless there is a financial advantage to magnets (please don't post saying there is one unless you have REAL proof), I don't really see a reason to give up chain lifts. They've worked fine for a century, and to me they're just a classic part of coasters. You don't get the same feel on any other type of lift.

[Austin]

There is a gigantic financial advantage. Operating costs go down. You take a motor that has moving parts and a chain which has moving parts to having magnetic fins that have 0 moving parts, which provide a smooth cheap way to get the train up the lift.

Think about it. Moving parts, they need work regularly. If something breaks your rides closed for a good amount of time until its replaced/fixed which means your not operating at capacity and really losing money by not having it open. You go from something thats got to have a lot of maintenance to something that needs hardly any and alot safer and provides a significant boost to up-time and rider satisfaction.

Its not that big of a idea to think about. Everyone knows moving parts need alot of maintenance. So if your able to go from something that needs alot to something that needs very little which would save you money by not having to power a giant motor, money for repairs, money for labor to something that really basically runs it self and just needs inspections then why would you not replace it? Its been proven to. If it wasnt then why would parks be changing out their fin brakes for magnets? They dont just go "well I got this cash right here so lets just throw it at this magnet brakes for the hell of it."

[mrceagle]

Not a bad argument. but you aren't simply putting magnets in place of the chain. You are installing powered magnets that require a lot of power. The chain lift engine uses far less energy. So your waying the extra operating cost to that of the maintenance. And from what I have heard from the parks I have talked to the chain lifts to not need much maintenance. Moving parts or not it's a very simply system with simple movements. not as much wear as most Amusement devices.

I thin the idea of Launches more speed not just to get it up the hill at the same pace as a lift. I think it's also more marketing and bragging them anything else.

[Austin]

But magnets have been proven cheaper. Plus they are more reliable. Holiday World got hit with 2 or 3 breakdowns at one time with Legend involving the chain/motor system. Plus on a coaster like voyage, which is already rough on the coaster itself, anything you can do to make it ride smoother will be a tremendous help. Plus with it being a major ride, the added reliability doesn't hurt either.

[David]

I am also with Austin, magnets are a cheaper more efficient way to get the train up the lift hill.

[Austin]

I don't know when we will actually see this system put in place but I would imagine not anytime soon since GG controls the market for wooden magnetic lifts currently so we would have to wait for them to build more coasters. Which once parks see how Voyage runs with them in 2012, and Twister this year plus that one in china we might see a rise in parks using them. Oh and Wooden Warrior at Quassy.

[David]

I wonder if maybe Twisted Twins might get timberliners...?

[Austin]

Who knows. Maybe. CCI was the predecessor to GCI so it would be a long shot but its possible.